{"id":83995,"date":"2016-10-11T08:21:58","date_gmt":"2016-10-11T08:21:58","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/www.wonderlandmagazine.com\/?p=80584"},"modified":"2017-03-03T11:55:22","modified_gmt":"2017-03-03T11:55:22","slug":"black-lives-matter","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.wonderlandmagazine.com\/2016\/10\/11\/black-lives-matter\/","title":{"rendered":"Black Lives Matter"},"content":{"rendered":"

As the Black Lives Matter conversation continues to unfold the world over (BLM crowds stormed London City Airport as Wonderland<\/em> went to press), we asked Emma Dabari, a teaching fellow at School of African Studies, to organise a debate between a few of London’s most independently-minded young creatives.<\/p>\n

Taken from the Autumn Issue of Wonderland.<\/em><\/p>\n

\"mischa<\/a><\/p>\n

Mischa Nottcutt\u00a0\u201cBrexit proves that we’re not\u00a0as forward thinking a country\u00a0as we think we are.\u201d\u00a0Shirt CELINE.<\/em><\/p>\n

\"emma<\/a><\/p>\n

Emma Dabiri\u00a0\u201cUnder capitalism black bodies\u00a0are merely labour or commodity,\u00a0how can we ever be free in such a\u00a0system? I think of Black Panthers\u00a0like Fred Hampton. \u2018We say we\u2019re\u00a0not going to fight capitalism with\u00a0black capitalism, but we\u2019re going to\u00a0fight it with socialism\u2019.\u201d Dress DSQUARED2<\/em><\/p>\n

\"ronan<\/a><\/p>\n

Ronan McKenzie\u00a0\u201cit\u2019s not really diversity, if you only\u00a0like your black girls light skinned.\u201d\u00a0Jacket CALVIN KLEIN COLLECTION<\/em><\/p>\n

Emma Dabiri, Fellow, SOAS<\/strong>: <\/span>What are all of your experiences with Black Lives Matter and the\u00a0differences between the UK and the US? Capres, you organised the recent London protest\u00a0[which was meant to be for 30 people, and closer to 3,000 turned up].<\/p>\n

Capres Willow, protester, Black Lives Matter<\/strong>: <\/span>The reason I organised the protest was because\u00a0I was online and I came across one of the killings. I was like: \u201cThis isn\u2019t the first one, this\u00a0isn\u2019t the last one. It seems like all people are doing is typing about it online.\u201d Okay, that\u2019s\u00a0great, show your opinion, but we need some real action. So I just organised a protest, not\u00a0expecting much from it and then 3,000 people turned up. After that I thought: \u201cOkay, now\u00a0I\u2019ve got responsibilities.\u201d I\u2019m not an activist and I\u2019ve never been to a protest before, but\u00a0from that I was like: \u201cAlright, what\u2019s next?\u201d Do you go about it in a political way? Do you\u00a0approach the government and say: \u201cThis needs to change\u201d? Then you look at the fact that\u00a0it\u2019s an institutional problem within the police. I\u2019m not saying a policeman is racist, but the\u00a0police as an institution is a racist institution\u2026<\/p>\n

E<\/strong>: <\/span>Do you think that police brutality is one of the main issues affecting black British people?\u00a0We know it\u2019s not to the same extent that it is in the US\u2026<\/p>\n

Mischa Notcutt, a stylist who runs the clubnight PDA<\/strong>: That\u2019s because they have guns! That\u2019s\u00a0<\/span>the only reason we\u2019re different from America. Brexit proves that we\u2019re not as forward as a\u00a0country as people think.<\/p>\n

E<\/strong>: <\/span>I\u2019m not in any way trying to suggest that\u00a0the UK is better than the US, that\u2019s not\u00a0what I think. But what do you think some\u00a0of the differences might be between how\u00a0racism manifests itself here and there? I\u00a0actually think British people are a lot more\u00a0sophisticated in the way racism operates. I\u00a0think there are issues that are specific to the\u00a0UK, that are maybe harder to unpick.<\/p>\n

Ronan McKenzie, fashion photographer<\/strong>:\u00a0Exactly, it\u2019s more undercover.<\/p>\n

M<\/strong>: <\/span>It\u2019s a lot more insidious here. People are\u00a0more scared about being called racist.<\/p>\n

E<\/strong>: <\/span>Precisely. In Brazil they had a policy called\u00a0\u201cThe Whitening\u201d. Unlike in England where\u00a0there was generally a fear of so-called \u201crace\u00a0mixing\u201d, in Brazil they had this huge African\u00a0descent population in the late 1800s\/early\u00a01900s. It was this actual policy where they\u00a0thought if they could just dilute the black\u00a0population enough, through mixing with the\u00a0white, they could eventually rid Brazil of the\u00a0\u201cNegro problem\u201d\u2026 Obviously the whole\u00a0forbidding mixing thing didn\u2019t work here,\u00a0but we\u2019ve said racism is more insidious here.\u00a0Have you read those articles that say that the\u00a0African Caribbean group will be the first\u00a0group to disappear in the UK? It\u2019s regularly\u00a0reported and the articles always finish in,\u00a0I think, a quite gleeful tone. I just feel like:\u00a0\u201cOh, is that what you want to happen?\u201d\u00a0I wonder if the more softly integrative,\u00a0assimilate approach in the UK is maybe a\u00a0low-key whitening thing.<\/p>\n

R<\/strong>: <\/span>You can see that in fashion, for example,\u00a0where people will be talking about diversity\u00a0but they won\u2019t cast any dark-skinned girls.\u00a0That\u2019s not really diversity, if really you only\u00a0like your black girls light-skinned.<\/p>\n

Mischa<\/strong>: <\/span>That\u2019s interesting, because when I\u00a0was younger, me and my sister would aways\u00a0be like: \u201cBut we\u2019re the future! Everyone\u2019s\u00a0going to be like us eventually!\u2019 The Jamaican\u00a0side [of my family] always see us as the white\u00a0cousins, and the white side always sees us\u00a0as the black cousins. So we always felt in\u00a0the middle. We always thought: \u201cThe more\u00a0mixed-race people, the better\u201d, because that\u00a0would give us more things to identify with\u00a0being mixed race and dual heritage.<\/p>\n

R<\/strong>: <\/span>I think it depends on where you are, as\u00a0well. I\u2019m from north east London and if\u00a0you’re mixed race you\u2019re like, the gods.\u00a0Everybody wanted to be mixed race, everybody wanted to have\u00a0lighter skin, curly hair and look mixed race, and all the mixed race\u00a0boys in my area were so sought after.<\/p>\n

Munroe Bergdorf, model<\/strong>: It\u2019s almost fetishised.<\/span><\/p>\n

R<\/strong>: <\/span>But it wasn’t a celebratory thing\u2026 It was more like: \u201cI don’t want\u00a0to be dark-skinned. I want to be more beautiful. I want to have lightskinned\u00a0babies, so they look better and be respected more.\u201d It\u2019s not\u00a0because you thought it would be great mixing\u2026 I remember, when\u00a0I was younger \u2014 maybe even up until a few years ago \u2014 when I\u00a0didn\u2019t want to tan, I’d put factor 50 sunscreen on because I didn\u2019t\u00a0want darker skin. I never looked at my dad thinking: \u201cI don’t like his\u00a0colour.\u201d I just didn’t want to be darker skinned myself.<\/p>\n

E<\/strong>: <\/span>I think that\u2019s a difference I\u2019ve experience between white\u00a0environments and black environments. In addition to the racism\u00a0that often occurs in white environments, there\u2019s the more liberal,\u00a0celebratory, \u201cOh, one day everybody will be brown like you! This\u00a0is the future!\u201d If you put that in black context, and you see the way\u00a0colourism operates, and the way there\u2019s all this pressure, and desire\u00a0to be lighter, and to have more mixed, European features, then that\u00a0kind of celebratory narrative seems quite perverse! In that context, it\u00a0gets really gross\u2026 What do you see as the role of non-black people?<\/p>\n

C<\/strong>: <\/span>Taking it back to Black Lives Matter, there was this group chat for\u00a0everyone that wanted to get involved in our projects. I actually left\u00a0it within a week because of the comments. People were coming out\u00a0with stuff like: \u201cIf you’re not black, you\u2019re a guest here!\u201d Or: \u201cAll the\u00a0white people need to leave, because us black people need to keep the\u00a0ball rolling!\u201d I just felt we have people who want to give support and\u00a0free resources, but not just that, they actually care about the matter\u00a0and you’re just going to turn them away?!<\/p>\n

Munroe<\/strong>: <\/span>It\u2019s so important to have an environment to speak freely.\u00a0To not have to worry about silencing yourself to the feelings and\u00a0fragility of people who won\u2019t necessarily understand, and who will\u00a0get in the way of progression. You have to explain a lot of things\u00a0that really you don\u2019t need to explain, if everybody is of the same\u00a0oppression.<\/p>\n

C<\/strong>: <\/span>But I don\u2019t think we should turn people away\u2026<\/p>\n

E<\/strong>: It\u2019s a tricky one, the labour required to explain things to people who\u00a0seem committed to derailing conversations \u2014 who are determined\u00a0to centralise themselves, because for the first time in their lives they\u00a0are experiencing what it feels like not to be central \u2014 can be almost\u00a0debilitating. At the same time, I think about a hero of mine, Fred\u00a0Hampton, who said: \u201cWe don\u2019t think you fight fire with fire best; we\u00a0think you fight fire with water best. We\u2019re going to fight racism not\u00a0with racism, but we\u2019re going to fight with solidarity. We say we\u2019re\u00a0not going to fight capitalism with black capitalism, but we\u2019re going\u00a0to fight it with socialism. We\u2019re going to fight [the reactions of racist\u00a0white institutions] with all of us people getting together and having\u00a0an international proletarian revolution.<\/p>\n

Munroe<\/strong>: <\/span>I think allies, definitely. But I think when it comes down to\u00a0understanding what black people need, you can\u2019t then have white\u00a0people orchestrating that.<\/p>\n

E<\/strong>: <\/span>We have to think about what it is that we actually want. What is the\u00a0objective of this different type of organisation? Is it to connect and\u00a0experience solidarity?<\/p>\n

Munroe<\/strong>: <\/span>To eradicate racism and to get onto a path that identifies\u00a0racism, and for everybody to get on the same page to know what\u00a0racism is\u2026 It doesn’t seem like everyone knows what it is.<\/p>\n

C<\/strong>: <\/span>But is it about your colour, or your culture? You’ll hear people say:\u00a0\u201cFucking Polish people,\u201d for example.<\/p>\n

Munroe<\/strong>: <\/span>I think they don\u2019t even know what it\u2019s about, I think it\u2019s just\u00a0xenophobia.<\/p>\n

C<\/strong>: <\/span>But they still have the same experiences \u2014 well, maybe not the\u00a0same. But they still experience racism.<\/p>\n

Munroe<\/strong>: <\/span>But that\u2019s not racism, that\u2019s just discrimination isn’t it? It\u2019s\u00a0not any better, but it\u2019s just discrimination.<\/p>\n

C<\/strong>: <\/span>But that\u2019s why I think white people should be allowed in, because\u00a0they experience discrimination.<\/p>\n

Munroe<\/strong>: <\/span>But discrimination is different to racism\u2026 What I\u2019m talking\u00a0about, systemic and institutionalised racism, that can never be\u00a0experienced by white people and that\u2019s what Black Lives Matter is\u00a0fighting against. So why are we including the kind of thing that has\u00a0the potential to corrupt it?<\/p>\n

E<\/strong>: <\/span>If the end goal is the eradication of racism, can that be achieved\u00a0without engagement of white people?<\/p>\n

Munroe<\/strong>: <\/span>Oh no, I\u2019m not saying don\u2019t engage! I\u2019m just saying about\u00a0the organisation from the top, and the movement needs to be black\u00a0people. I do think the support network needs to be everybody,\u00a0because you can\u2019t have equality if it\u2019s not everybody.<\/p>\n

E<\/strong>: <\/span>How can we bring about the end of racism; a non-racist society?<\/p>\n

C<\/strong>: This isn\u2019t realistic, but there\u2019s this idea in sociology: to make real\u00a0change, everything needs to be destroyed and start again. Things\u00a0need to be rebuilt, start from scratch almost. Like nature does: when\u00a0winter comes, it\u2019s destroyed and in the spring it\u2019s reborn again. Even\u00a0though it\u2019s a horrible idea, it\u2019s also a really nice idea, it\u2019s refreshing\u00a0for everyone to have that fresh start. In my opinion, I don’t mean to\u00a0sound super-negative, but I do feel like that it could potentially be\u00a0that we all do need to be destroyed.<\/p>\n

E<\/strong>: <\/span>Yeah, that\u2019s what I often think. Even the idea of egalitarianism\u00a0and equality is not enough, because exploitation, anti-blackness\u00a0and patriarchy are coded into the DNA of the neoliberal system.\u00a0I don’t even know if reform is even a step in the right direction.\u00a0How can you reform something completely corrupt? These are ideas\u00a0I\u2019m struggling with myself. Nonetheless, let\u2019s take radical revolution\u00a0out of the equation for a second and let\u2019s just think about some of\u00a0those other topics that we’ve generated, and how we can go about\u00a0influencing and creating change\u2026<\/p>\n

Mischa<\/strong>: <\/span>It\u2019s doing your bit! Helping other people who are in the\u00a0same situation as you\u2026 Even saying on Facebook what you think,\u00a0instead of not saying anything. Just saying: \u201cNo, that\u2019s actually not\u00a0cool!\u201d I do casting, so I take a stance of always putting black people\u00a0in packages and I make it uncomfortable for people to say that they\u00a0just want white people. I ask ask them: \u201cWhat\u2019s your reasoning?\u201d\u00a0It\u2019s cool if it\u2019s artistically, like if you’re going for a Russian theme.\u00a0But what is it you’re actually saying? What are you wanting to say?\u00a0How do you think it is going to be read? I feel like me just asking\u00a0those questions to someone, that\u2019s my responsibility for the job that\u00a0I do. That\u2019s my way of being a protester \u2014 what can do in my day-to-day?<\/p>\n

\"munroe<\/a><\/p>\n

Munroe Bergdorf\u00a0\u201cWe need to eradicate racism\u00a0and to get onto a path that\u00a0identifies racism and for\u00a0everybody to get on the same\u00a0page to know what racism\u00a0is. It doesn\u2019t seem like everyone\u00a0knows what it is.\u201d\u00a0Dress GIVENCHY BY RICCARDO TISCI.<\/em><\/p>\n

\"capres<\/a><\/p>\n

Capres Willow\u00a0\u201cThings need to be rebuilt,\u00a0start from scratch almost.\u00a0Like nature does, when\u00a0winter comes it\u2019s destroyed\u00a0and in the spring it\u2019s reborn\u00a0again. Even though it\u2019s a\u00a0horrible idea, it\u2019s also a really\u00a0nice idea, it\u2019s refreshing for\u00a0everyone to have that\u00a0fresh start.\u201d\u00a0Jacket and pearls CHANEL<\/em><\/p>\n

Edited by SOVREIGN<\/p>\n

Fashion<\/strong>: Matthew Josephs<\/p>\n

Hair<\/strong>: Hiroshi Matsushita<\/p>\n

Make Up<\/strong>: Thom Walker using YSL Beauty<\/p>\n

Nails<\/strong>: Ama Quashie at CLM Hair & Make Up using M.A.C Cosmetics<\/p>\n

Styling assistance<\/strong>: Toni Blaze Ibekwe.<\/p>\n

Special Thanks to Matthew Stone.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

As the Black Lives Matter conversation continues to unfold the world over (BLM crowds stormed London City Airport as Wonderland went to press), we asked Emma Dabari, a teaching fellow at School of African Studies, to organise a debate between a few of London’s most independently-minded young creatives.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":102152,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[9416],"tags":[9809,4145,7382,9697],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\nBlack Lives Matter | Wonderland Magazine<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"As the Black Lives Matter conversation continues to unfold the world over (BLM crowds stormed London City Airport as Wonderland went to press), we asked Emma Dabari, a teaching fellow at School of African Studies, to organise a debate between a few of London's most independently-minded young creatives.\" \/>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, 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