“Do you feel like the younger versions of you that you wrote about may have healed now?” I ask Heather Baron-Gracie, the lead vocalist of the UK band, Pale Waves, on an August Friday. This ending question is on behalf of Smitten, the new Pale Waves album, a project that acts as the souvenir of Baron-Gracie’s youth. From her self-identity to her explored relationships with past partners, it holds remnants of the band’s previous projects while evoking emotions that are very new.

The twelve track album with unforgettable tracks like the opener “Glasgow”, “Miss America”, “Last Train Home” and “Seeing Stars” are direct inspirations from Baron-Gracie’s past lives. Ten years have passed since the band’s initial creation, with the band achieving success in 2017 from their earlier songs like “There’s A Honey” and “Television Romance.” From when they first started, the quartet of Heather Baron-Gracie, Ciara Doran, Hugo Silvani, and Charlie Wood, are older and more assured of themselves, and of what their sound can be. In past projects Unwanted and Who Am I?, the group have experimented with a hybridity of sounds, including pop-punk, indie rock, and dream pop. This experimentation has allowed them to create music with intention, passion and lyricism as a first priority while challenging defined genres.

With Smitten, the band operates from a place of maturity, and deep contentment about who they are in music. Baron-Gracie may no longer be the teenager she was when the hybrid alt indie-pop rock group blew up, but she’s still ambitious, musically-driven, and inclined to listen to sad music on a long drive. Smitten is her chance to make peace with prior experiences that in the past she may not have ever felt comfortable to express through music.

Pale Waves have entered a new phase; Wonderland sat down with Baron-Gracie to discuss her writing process, the new record, and what’s next for the band.

Listen to Smitten…

Read the interview…

So you started singing at an early age. When did music become this long-term passion?
I think it was around seven or eight. Originally, I was really into sports, I loved playing football. I loved running. I was always outside doing some kind of sport. But then I had a back injury—I needed to have an operation, get some metal work in my back and in my spine, so basically I wasn’t able to do those sports anymore. I needed to recover, and I just couldn’t do the sports like I used to. So, my dad plays guitar, and he was like, “why don’t we just play some guitar together?” Because I had to sit inside for a year and a half, and I started playing the guitar, and that’s when I fell in love with it, and that’s when I realised I actually enjoyed doing this. Maybe I can make this a thing for the rest of my life.

And when you met Ciara in college, studying at the University of Manchester, it was music you were studying?
Yeah, it was a music university, and I was studying songwriting. But I don’t know how you can teach songwriting, it’s really so unique and personal, but it allowed me to meet Ciara, and then that’s how we kind of formed the band. That’s when we started writing music together.

Did you expect to be in a band? Did you imagine that it would start to transition into something you’d do with multiple people?
No, not really at the start. I always imagined I’d be a solo artist. I never really pictured myself in a band when I was starting out, because it’s just easier to rely on yourself, and it’s actually really hard to find people who want to commit to it and take it seriously. But Ciara and I clicked right away, and we started writing music together instantly, but we had to almost do auditions. I felt like we were in X Factor or something for the other half of the band. And that was really eventful, and we met a lot of people, and I was definitely like Simon Cowell, and Ciara was Sharon, you know—the nicer one. And I was like, “no, terrible, shocking—goodbye.” But then when we found Charlie and Hugo, it all kind of clicked into place, and then we were all ready to commit. So that’s when I kind of thought, oh yeah, this band thing could work.

Did you have an initial spark with Hugo and Charlie when you met them? Did you already know that they might be the people to fulfill the rest of the band? Or did it take a couple of tries or a couple of songs and practices?
It was pretty instant for me, and I feel like I feel that with most things in my life. And with Hugo, I instantly knew that he would be a great guitarist and he was ready to commit. And then with Charlie, I saw him play in a different band. We went to watch him, and I was like, “we need that bassist in our band. We need to steal him.” We did just business at the end of the day.

Just business, honestly. When creating Smitten, was it an all in recording session? Or do you remember experiences happening throughout that time that helped inspire the overall project?
We were in a really random town south in a place called Eastbourne, which is a very sleepy seasidey town full of old people, but very, very nice and beautiful. I really didn’t want to do it in the city, because we’ve done our last albums either in London or LA, and it’s just so hectic and so busy. I want to be surrounded by the English countryside, because that really inspired Smitten for me. We were in this studio in Eastbourne, and we recorded the majority of it there and then we went up to London for two weeks to finish all the vocals up in another studio, but we already did all the music down south from Eastbourne. At one point, we thought that the studio had mice because we kept finding, like—droppings everywhere. And I was like, “Oh, my, what is my life right now?” But I set up a little secret camera in the studio to try and catch these mice. I never found them. I never saw them. They never came out. So I don’t know. Maybe they were droppings from ages ago.

So, Unwanted came out in 2022. Did you immediately start working on Smitten afterward, or was there a process of trying out other things, or travelling—what was your intermission between the two?
Yeah, I think we went on tour for Unwanted for a minute, and then we started writing for Smitten, but it took us a while to figure out what direction we wanted to go into. We must have written about like 60-70, songs for Smitten, and a lot of them were terrible. A lot of them were shocking, and I’ll never listen to them again, but I think we got “Seeing Stars” first, and then the rest kind of followed, and that kind of showed us the way for where we wanted to go. And it was kind of what we always do best. It’s kind of that 80s, 90s, romantic soundtrack, right? You know, the Cocteau Twins, The Cranberries, and that’s just what we gravitate towards the most.

Did you imagine, especially since Unwanted has more of this punk kind of feeling, that you’d do something maybe more dreamy, definitely slightly more 90s and a little bit softer. Did you imagine that that was the direction you guys were going to go into?
Yeah, for sure, I didn’t want to do the Unwanted album again. I feel like we can do rock pop if we want to, but it’s just not who we are. I feel like we’re always that kind of goth dream pop band, and for me, Unwanted is kind of the odd one out. We wrote that music, we wrote that album for playing live, and some of the songs on them like “You’re So Vain,” and “Jealousy,” I have the most fun playing live, and I always look forward to those songs the most. But would I sit down and listen to Unwanted over the other albums? No, right, so it’s more so for fun.

Since Unwanted came out and it was supposed to be for Post-Pandemic relief, inspired by the idea of being live. Did you have a feeling in mind for how you’d want your audience to take in Smitten?
For me, Smitten is very dreamy, romantic and very feminine. It’s very soft and delicate.
I want them to just just kind of listen to every lyric that I’m saying and really captivate the kind of feeling that we’ve put into these songs. Because I feel like it is quite storytelling across all of the songs on there. And if they want to listen to it, I would say, listen to it with every kind of detail. Listen for every detail that you can, because there’s a lot that’s gone into this record. And, for example, like, “Last Train Home,” there’s about 25 guitar parts, but there’s so many little things throughout Smitten that you won’t hear on the first time. You need to listen to it multiple times to hear of these little things.

What is your songwriting process like?
It’s different every time, to be honest, but I found I write the best songs when it starts with just myself and an acoustic guitar, an idea, a lyric or a concept. I feel like they were always much stronger when I’ve stripped everything away and started from nothing and built it up, whereas if I was to come into something, where the music was already done, I feel like that almost ties me down. And there’s not a lot of freedom in terms of songwriting. So a lot of Smitten was really acoustic, and then we kind of built a world around the song, and it was more challenging to be fair, but I do think it paid off, because I do feel like this album is more descriptive and it’s more personal—it’s more unique, and there’s a lot of lyrics in Smitten that someone would listen to and be like, ‘wait, what was that? I need to listen to that again and dissect that.’ Words in the past, I feel maybe I wrote more broad lyrics.

Are there any songs from Smitten that you can remember where, when you listen back and go, “Oh, I remember when Hugo put that in,” or there was an idea from Charlie or Ciara?
I’m trying to think. There was a lot of bouncing back and forth with everyone’s ideas in the studio. We tried out many guitar tones and many tones on the bass. And Charlie was like, ‘oh yeah, maybe try this tone.’ And Hugo almost tried too many tones on the guitar. You know, like a proper guitarist, he wants to try out all the options because he wants to get the best tone that he can get. I think he suggested bringing out the 12 string. And there’s a lot of 12 string on this record, and he also suggested doing a Nashville tuning on a lot of the songs. So, it’s like a guitar was tuned highest, and there’s a layer of a Nashville tuning throughout all of the songs that we just layered on every single one. And it just gives more of that jangly feel. And that was kind of a trick that we did throughout Smitten.

Do they also help with collaborating in the songwriting? Or is that just your process?
I would say the majority of songwriting would stem from me, but with little parts here and there, they might suggest something. Or I’m like, “oh, I’m trying to say this, but, I need to fit it with this amount of syllables or something,” and they could suggest something, and they’re helpful in that way because sometimes I feel when you’re so involved in it, that sometimes it’s hard to get clarity. So it’s good to hear other people’s opinions. I do love collaborating, and I love when my vision is brought to life and the people make it stronger. Now that’s really, that’s really important.

I know you guys just announced your UK tour. How are you excited to tour for Smitten?
Oh yeah, so excited. And we’ve already got the set list, to be honest. We were already building the set, and we went into rehearsals and I feel like a lot of these songs are going to be really fun to play live. I’m really excited to play “not a love song” live. I feel like that’s gonna be so fun—yes, I’m super excited. I feel people are gonna connect with this album, and like I said, it’s just gonna be a very fun feminine time.

How do you think performing Smitten is going to contrast what it was like touring Unwanted?
Oh, they’re totally different albums in my eyes. And it’s interesting that we were able to write something that is so different from one another. But we’ve still taken the best songs from Unwanted so like, “You’re So Vain,” and “Jealousy.” Those are still in the set list, so we still have those moments, because I love playing those songs live. I think they’re so fun, and I can really get into a character when I’m playing songs like “jealousy,” but it will be a contrast, because Smitten is much more emotional, and it’s very dreamy and romantic. So I feel like they’re going to be songs that people just almost scream at me, rather than like mosh to, which is a change of pace.

Pale Waves is just shy of the 10 year anniversary, which is crazy. Does it feel like that many years have passed?
It doesn’t. It’s so weird. I can almost close my eyes and go back to the start when we started our tour in America. But, yeah, it’s crazy. Our dynamic is still the same. We have a really fun time with it, and everyone makes me laugh so much. And not much has changed, it’s just we’ve grown and the music has gotten better.

When you guys were starting out, does that younger version of yourself feel like a completely different person? Or do you still feel certain versions of that youth in the music that you’re creating now?
Yeah, I do. I feel like she’s always there. As I’ve gotten older, I’ve just gotten more confident, and I’ve come to [feel comfortable in] my own skin a lot more. We play songs like “There’s A Honey,” and “Television Romance,” and it takes me back to those early days, and it’s almost a journey. The music has grown, but we’ve also grown as people, and it’s nice to see the progress that everyone goes through, but we go through a lot of it together, just because we’re always around one another.

Of course. Has there ever been a moment where you’ve been around your bandmates and went like, ‘wow, I’ve just seen you grow up from where we started?’
They’ve all come on such a journey and have grown up. Charlie—not that much. He’s still such a party boy, but I wouldn’t have him any other way to be honest. It’s so nice to see them go through their journey and become themselves and feel more comfortable and confident in their skin. That’s incredible to see and witness. Hugo is now becoming a producer and he’s a lot more confident and comfortable in his own skin, but our dynamic is probably the best it’s been. We actually all really like each other. And I know a lot of other bands don’t, and they’re sick of each other, but we all make each other laugh. I mean, they make me laugh all the time, and they’re always having a good time. I do my own thing a lot of the time, just because I need the space. But, yeah, they’re all great, and they make me laugh so much. They’re so funny, and I’m not funny, so it’s nice to be around funny people.

Do they bring out, like, a more extroverted side of you? Your bandmates?
Yeah, they’re always trying to get me to party, but at this point in my life, I’m just good with being boring. So, I’ll chill for a bit, but when it gets to midnight, I need to go to sleep, and I need to get my sleep in whereas, they’ll stay up, Charlie will be up sometimes till 5am, still talking to the bus driver.

That’s incredible. I applaud him for what he can do. But me on the other hand, no.
Yeah, I’m in bed with my vitamins and my face mask, and my dog’s in my bunk as well. I take my dog on tour now. So that’s been interesting, too, having my dog on tour. Everyone loves her. And she weirdly likes the tour bus, like she wants to stay on the tour bus, and she loves all the attention that she gets, and she’s almost like a mascot. And now when, like, I walk off the bus with her, people are more excited to see her than me. She’s funny. I’m like, “Yes, you take that light, you take the stardom.”

Wait, what breed is she?
Well, she’s a mix, she’s a rescue. So we don’t actually know, but we did a DNA test, and she got poodle [mix], but then also she got 10% Dalmatian, and if you see her, you understand, she don’t look anything like a Dalmatian, she’s 15 pounds—a little tiny ginger thing. So we’re really confused about where Dalmatian came from. But she’s 11 years old, so she’s chill, but she has a lot of puppy energy. So we have to throw the ball on the bus all the time.

At some point during a show, you might just have to stay backstage and let her sing. Just have a moment honestly at this point.
I think she’d enjoy that more. I think she would enjoy that, honestly.

She suddenly starts doing the interviews, and she starts replacing you, it’s kind of like the Mandela effect, and everyone will ask “where did Heather go?” And people will say, “Heather has never been here”
Right, it’s always been Twiggy. She’ll just say, “it’s always been me.” I’m fine with that, honestly. I’ll just collect, I’ll just collect the checks.

In a previous interview, you mentioned how many moments in Smitten were about your personal experiences, the exploration of your identity and sexuality. What sparked that openness and want to be more vulnerable or truthful in your music?
I think at the time when I was writing Smitten, I was purposely reading and watching a lot of queer material, books, poetry books, and movies. I was totally consuming myself in queerness, basically. And that kind of allowed me to really, kind of go back to moments in time. I didn’t really want to write completely about my present tense, right now. I wanted to revisit a lot of experiences that I haven’t felt for years, and I’ve never written about them. So, I think I would only be able to do this now. I wouldn’t have been able to do this, even for Unwanted because I needed to be, I needed to become a lot more mature to be able to revisit those experiences and write about them and feel comfortable about writing about them.